On 2008-02-03, Mark South <mark.south@null.invalid> wrote:
>>>

....

>> Once again, you are talking apples and oranges above. A window manager
>> and an integrated desktop environment like KDE or Gnome, are very
>> different beasts.
>
> Some say so. I believe it to be a matter of degree. There is a
> spectrum, and some window managers come close to providing desktop
> environments (Enlightenment, Windowmaker) and some have configuration to
> make it possible, like fvwm-crystal.

It's not as simple as 'degree'. A window manager is a utility.

An integrated desktop environment is a user-interface that conceals
the way you OS really works.

>> KDE/Gnome _have_ window managers. They are not window managers.
>
> Yup. It's a layered stack.
>
>> I am using a great window manager right now, called ratpoison. It's just
>> about infinitely configurable.
>>
>> It's 112K with no special libs. Compare that to the size of KDE or Gnome
>> and all the special libs they need...
>>
>> We are talking orders of magnitude of size difference and functional
>> difference.
>
> Indeed. And I prefer a bicycle as a means of getting about, but
> sometimes a train is more practical.

That's not an accurate analogy. You can't do anything with KDE that
others can't do with ODE.

>>> But any of them should be capable of working correctly, and so I asked
>>> because I am obviously missing exactly how to ensure that KDE works
>>> with Skype. I'm sure that, reading this group, there are many who have
>>> this setup working.
>>>
>>>> Afraid they'll take your computer away for failing to use the
>>>> Korporate Desktop Environment?
>>>
>>> They're more likely to take it away for not using that OS from the top
>>> left corner of the US called (*expletive deleted*).
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> But KDE/Gnome are clones of the Windows user-interface. By going down
>> that path you are protecting yourself from them by doing what they want:
>> Becoming more like them.
>
> It's like alcohol. I can take it or let it alone.
>
>> That makes no sense.
>>
>> KDE/Gnome are all free and open source now, but they won't be for long.
>> And once the patents are all secured in the corrupt,
>> corporate-controlled courts, Linux is a thing of the past.
>
> Not over this side of the water, here it's going the other direction.

If they are using KDE/Gnome, then that's an illusion.

Here's how it works: The people behind KDE, the one's that
are financing all that development (hundreds of thousands of
person-hours by very skilled workers*), want people to become
dependent on KDE. They want them to forget about the shell.
To be afraid of it.

(* Do you think the corporations make that kind of investment
without expecting a huge payoff?)

Pretty soon there won't BE any shell or 'xterms' on the KDE OSes.
It doesn't need the shell. They have developed their own way of
making system calls. A different protocol.

That's exactly what happenned with Windows: When it first began
it kept the DOS shell user-interface, then it phased it out.

So now there isn't any way to run Windows except with their
integrated desktop environment, and no one can tell what's
really going on under the hood. And the user certainly can't
control it, either.

Because it's not open source software. They are just coming
at it from another direction with Linux.

In the case of Linux, making it closed-source and non-free
software will be the last step, rather than the first.

But the end result will be the same.

Getting rid of the shell and all those wonderful utilities
will be the next step after everyone is hooked on KDE.
And integrating the whole system like Windows is: KDE
won't be an option, it will BE Linux, as far as the user
is concerned.

See? Whenever you are dealing with a group that wants to
make it easy: "user-friendly", you are dealing with someone
who wants you to be an ignorant and dependent appliance
operator.

Computers just aren't simple and they never will be.

But running Linux from the shell is a lot easier than
running it from KDE. It only seems to be the other way
around to most people because they already know how to
use Windows and KDE is a Windows-interface clone.

Tom