Bob wrote:

> Philip Paeps wrote:
>
>>>The difference is the same as that between a bicycle and a space shuttle,
>>>with windows being the bike. In essence they are both a means of
>>>transportation.
>>
>>
>> I'll have to remember that one :-)
>>
>> But I would compare microsoft "windows" to ice skates rather than a bike.
>
> No, I agree with bike. You ride the town bike and you're guaranteed to
> pick up an infection.

LOL! I never thought of it that way.

--
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
-Douglas Adams

Quoth Bob on or about 2004-11-16:
> I actually assumed it was a homework question.

If that's the case, then his country's education system is a damn sight
more clued than mine. Here in .au most secondary schools don't get much
farther than the relative merits of Microsoft Office components[0].

"*Programmin'*? That's Un-i-versitee teachin', son."

-trent
[0] Well, that was four years ago. Now you can apparently do a unit on Borland
Delphi (wow!).

Trent Buck wrote:

> Quoth Bob on or about 2004-11-16:
>> I actually assumed it was a homework question.
>
> If that's the case, then his country's education system is a damn sight
> more clued than mine. Here in .au most secondary schools don't get much
> farther than the relative merits of Microsoft Office components[0].
>
> "*Programmin'*? That's Un-i-versitee teachin', son."
>
> -trent
> [0] Well, that was four years ago. Now you can apparently do a unit on
> [Borland
> Delphi (wow!).

Funny you say that, Here in Canada it reversed. I would say that my
highschool education was better than my university. Highschool did Basic in
grade 10, Turing (Used to be Pascal) in grade 11, and in grade 12 they
taught us C. I was amazed to see how much they covered: pointers,
structures, unions, etc. I cant speak for other universities, but mine
tried an introductory course in C in first year, they didnt even try to
cover pointers, scanf was the furthest they went and told us we should
accept the '&' as a given, and that we will be instructed when to use it.
Over the next three years they crippled our minds with Java. Programming in
Java makes me feel like trying to give a life saving speech with tongue cut
out. They also supplemented our education with as much microsoft software
as they can dig out. They even gave us free subscription to some MS website
where we can download legit copies of most MS crapware. By fourth year they
were pretty certain that we were well conditioned and gave us choice of
platform, I rejoiced and did everything in C on Linux/Solaris, the TAs had
no clue what to do about marking it.

There is many other areas where my formal education is lacking but I dont
concern myself with this, especially when I can see the answers an employer
will get when they ask one of these people to explain the difference
between WIndows and Unix (nevermind any other techincal subject)

I am glad to be done that BS. My personal favorite was:

----------
Input-->| System |--> Output
----------

Philip Paeps <philip+usenet@paeps.cx> writes:

> In comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc wally <root@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>> sandy wrote:
>> > i am a begginer to the world of unix, an interviewer asked me " wat do u
>> > think is the difference between unix(or *.nix) and windows" i kindly
>> > request u to help me to ans this Q?
>>
>> The difference is the same as that between a bicycle and a space shuttle,
>> with windows being the bike. In essence they are both a means of
>> transportation.
>
> I'll have to remember that one :-)
>
> But I would compare microsoft "windows" to ice skates rather than a bike.
>
> - Philip

segway and a quad-bike?

One is expensive, available from only one supplier, stable in narrow
range of well defined environments and slow.

The other is available from a variety of vendors, with differing
prices and quality, are generaly fast, stable in a wide range of
environments, and gives you plenty of opportunity to do yourself
serious harm.


--
Justin Murdock

wally wrote:

> Funny you say that, Here in Canada it reversed. I would say that my
> highschool education was better than my university.

At high school we were 'taught' LOGO - the software with the turtle that
draws lines. We were 'taught' LOGO for, if I remember rightly, more than
two months. It was a case of ten percent of the class explaining to the
teacher what she was talking about, and eighty percent of the class
being bored rigid. It did, however, give us all a solid understanding of
the difference between left and right.

> There is many other areas where my formal education is lacking but I dont
> concern myself with this, especially when I can see the answers an employer
> will get when they ask one of these people to explain the difference
> between WIndows and Unix (nevermind any other techincal subject)

Even though I use Windows XP at home (I'm a gaming whore - Half Life 2
is out today!!!), I refuse to use it for development. Which makes me
pretty much unemployable, even in central London.

> I am glad to be done that BS. My personal favorite was:
>
> ----------
> Input-->| System |--> Output
> ----------

I was once in a university course on databases that showed the same
slide (listing some features of SQL) repeatedly. I swear, that one
transparency was placed onto the projector three hundred times.

Formal education blows.
--
Bob

Quoth wally on or about 2004-11-16:
> Over the next three years they crippled our minds with Java. By fourth year they
> were pretty certain that we were well conditioned and gave us choice of
> platform, I rejoiced and did everything in C on Linux/Solaris, the TAs had
> no clue what to do about marking it.

I have experienced two types of tertiary CS course.

The former are Microsoft all the way, except for a single lonely Tru64
swerver that's crying to itself because not even vi is working. They
teach HTML(!) and Java as introductory `programming languages', and
only move on to C++ in the last year of the course. The lecturers are
completely clueless, unable to answer questions in lectures and only
check their e-mail once a week. They're mostly in their twenties or
thirties and have zero experience outside their unit syllabus. Somehow
the invigilators are even thicker than the lecturers, they have just
enough smarts to regurgitate the lecture notes and tell people off for
playing flash games. The students are the kind of imbeciles you'd
normally killfile, the sort who customize their desktop shell and spend
the whole day discussing the merits of various first-person shooters.
They have no understanding of what they're writing, and will try to hire
you to write assignments for them using the outrageous profits made from
building and modding machines for their `friends'. The only electronic
system that works consistently is the one that takes your money, and
since their Windows network can't talk securely to the outside world,
your assignments will have to be printed and *physically* handed in at
the office. Remote login won't even occur to the MCSEs that
administrate the network, because the only remote access protocol
they've seen is RDP.

They aim to turn out corporate code monkeys who do what they're told.

The latter use Solaris and Linux swervers, with dual-boot NT (for the
MBAs) and Linux in the labs. They start out teaching C until students
gain an understanding of how the language *works*, then move on to C++
for applications and POSIX for systems programming. In the last year
they'll expose students to more exotic (e.g. functional, declarative)
languages, because CS is about research as well as industry grunt work.
The lecturers are so clued as to sometimes be obtuse, and are only
taking time off the real work to teach because it's a condition of their
grant. They're generally gruff, but will become interested if you ask
intelligent questions. It can be difficult to get hold of them, but
that's not a big problem because the TAs and invigilators are pretty
bloody clued too, and will go out of their way to help you. At least
the core units will have a usenet or other forum, and maybe the dumber
students never find it because the students seem smarter too. The
stupid ones are capable of improvment if you LART them enough, and the
smarter ones frequently post better answers than the proctors and honors
students, who read the groups pro bono. The course material and even
lecture audio is available online, and coding assignments can be
submitted, marked and the results sent back to you within twenty minutes
(iteratively). Students can login remotely to Solaris and Linux boxen,
so even Microsoft-bound students can work from home on a Real OS. Oh,
and your login and password are the same for every system, and your home
directory is the same everywhere.

They aim to turn out Computer Scientists who can think for themselves.

It sounds to me like you picked the wrong University, my friend. If
you're still there, get out right quick.

I've just finished second year at Monash University, which is the model
for the latter description. I won't dob in the former Uni, because a
Monk works in their Astonomy department and I rather not risk any...
repercussions, however unlikely.

-trent

Trent Buck <NOSPAMfubarbaz@bigpond.com> writes:

> I have experienced two types of tertiary CS course.
>
> The former are Microsoft all the way, except for a single lonely Tru64
> swerver that's crying to itself because not even vi is working. They
> teach HTML(!) and Java as introductory `programming languages', and
> only move on to C++ in the last year of the course.

[snip]

> They aim to turn out corporate code monkeys who do what they're told.
>
> The latter use Solaris and Linux swervers, with dual-boot NT (for the
> MBAs) and Linux in the labs. They start out teaching C until students
> gain an understanding of how the language *works*, then move on to C++
> for applications and POSIX for systems programming. In the last year
> they'll expose students to more exotic (e.g. functional, declarative)
> languages, because CS is about research as well as industry grunt work.

[snip]
>
> They aim to turn out Computer Scientists who can think for themselves.

Well, it's hard to tell if either approach is right: they both, sort of,
prepare you for just a single way of working (UNIX vs. Windows) and neither
really prepares you for more esoteric stuff and thinking outside of the
box. You end up working on a mainframe and you feel completely lost.

Ideally, IMO, you should start teaching _general_ subject and then use
Windows and UNIX as just case studies, nothing more, nothing less.

Bye, Dragan

--
Dragan Cvetkovic,

To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!

Quoth Dragan Cvetkovic on or about 2004-11-16:
>
> Well, it's hard to tell if either approach is right: they both, sort of,
> prepare you for just a single way of working (UNIX vs. Windows) and neither

Perhaps, but if it's UNIX vs. Windows I know which I'd choose.

I was commenting more on the overall cluefulness of the organization.
Lecturers from the first Uni couldn't (or wouldn't) answer even simple
questions like `is the index operator commutative?'

-t

Trent Buck <NOSPAMfubarbaz@bigpond.com> writes:

> Quoth Dragan Cvetkovic on or about 2004-11-16:
>>
>> Well, it's hard to tell if either approach is right: they both, sort of,
>> prepare you for just a single way of working (UNIX vs. Windows) and neither
>
> Perhaps, but if it's UNIX vs. Windows I know which I'd choose.
>
> I was commenting more on the overall cluefulness of the organization.
> Lecturers from the first Uni couldn't (or wouldn't) answer even simple
> questions like `is the index operator commutative?'
>

But you are making the standard mistake: you identify your professors and
university staff with the subject in question. I am not defending them, but
would you be all for Windows and hating UNIX if the university staff were
the other way round?

It's one of these "I don't like and don't know math because my prof was no
good".

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Been at the university (both as a
student and as a professor).

Bye, Dragan

--
Dragan Cvetkovic,

To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!

>
> But I would compare microsoft "windows" to ice skates rather than a bike.
>
> - Philip

Nah, no matter how good you get on "Windows", it still dumps you on your arse.