***** charles <shultzjrX@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Ryoko" <ryoko-nsp-@talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:ryoko-nsp--3F64F6.21523401052007@europe.isp.giganews.com...
>> In article <oQLZh.7618$13.6048@nnrp.ca.mci.com!nnrp1.uunet.ca >,
>> > No one is stopping you from making your own ISO. I burned my own
>> > install CDs with just the stuff I needed for years, so I could
>> > sneaker-net from work.
>>
>> Agreed.
>> In my case the cd I make includes raidframe by default so I can boot etc
>> and use S/W RAID. I do try to encourage the boss to buy an official CD
>> for work though.
>>
>> R.
>
> First, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that only the iso images are
> copywrited. If someone were to come out with a dvd image that was
> bootable and had all/most of the OBSD software and was easy to
> install, that would help make the adoption of OBSD a lot easier. New
> dvd players are $19.95 and can be connected and used on most pc
> clone type computers. I have read that the install process of OBSD
> has been kept necessarily complicated so that only computer gurus
> actually install and use it. I am not so sure I believe that but I know
> that getting OBSD installed on a computer for the first time can be
> a bit of a trial. I have installed it on many computers and I find it
> usefull for solving certain types of problems. I suspect that most of
> the people in the OBSD community like the way it is and don't really
> care about making installing it easier as a very high priority.

Au contraire - OpenBSD's installer is the only I've used that ever got
^Z right. (Almost certainly not the only one at all, though). That is
*terribly* useful.

Also, it Just Works but manages to stay powerful enough to create rather
unorthodox setups without ever leaving the installer. The only thing I
could imagine adding is raidframe, but since an alternative is being
written that might not be that far off anyway...

Of course, this is from the perspective of someone who has done this
quite a few times; I'll admit to needing the installation instructions
in the FAQ the first time. But that's what the FAQ is for, isn't it?
With the FAQ at hand, it's easy enough.

Of course, OpenBSD's installer doesn't exactly provide dazzling
eye-candy, or a live CD. However, since OpenBSD itself provides neither
(at least by default; eye-candy can be installed, and there are -
unofficial - live CDs), I don't think that is too big an issue.

Finally, I like how the installer is fully functional from a standard
floppy.

Joachim

M.K. (mk40@ozemail.com.au) wrote:

> http://freeweb.ozi.nu/~torrent/

Spread the word, not the disk.

--
Please do not feed my mailbox, Swen still does his job well

Ryoko wrote:
> In article <oQLZh.7618$13.6048@nnrp.ca.mci.com!nnrp1.uunet.ca >,
>> No one is stopping you from making your own ISO. I burned my own
>> install CDs with just the stuff I needed for years, so I could
>> sneaker-net from work.
>
> Agreed.
> In my case the cd I make includes raidframe by default so I can boot etc
> and use S/W RAID. I do try to encourage the boss to buy an official CD
> for work though.
>
Oh, we do, actually. All our internet facing mail is OpenBSD+Postfix.
I'm trying to convince them to move to spamd, as well. Before I knew
this I would make my own ISO after downloading everything I needed.

For a few releases I would copy the CD I needed from work and just buy a
t-shirt from OpenBSD. Since I've been making a bit more money I buy a
DVD set of my own (and still get a t-shirt).

"Aaron Hsu" <aaron.hsu@sacrificumdeo.net> wrote in
message newsp.trn9cj14m4y54h@illuminus...
> On Tue, 01 May 2007 17:35:22 -0500, ***** charles
> <shultzjrX@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > I have read that the install process of OBSD
> > has been kept necessarily complicated so that only computer gurus
> > actually install and use it. I am not so sure I believe that but I know
> > that getting OBSD installed on a computer for the first time can be
> > a bit of a trial. I have installed it on many computers and I find it
> > usefull for solving certain types of problems. I suspect that most of
> > the people in the OBSD community like the way it is and don't really
> > care about making installing it easier as a very high priority.
>
> This sounds very similar to a trolling, so I guess I am taking a bit of a
> chance in actually responding to this message, but I thought I would share
> my experiences on the subject.
>
> Frankly, OpenBSD's installer just works for the most part, and that's why
> I think it has remained the same as it always has. It does receive
> improvements and useability adjustments (check the new things added in
> 4.1), but the whole reason I started with OpenBSD in the beginning of my
> Free Software experience was because it was the only installation that
> actually made sense and worked on the first try. At that time I couldn't
> get any Linux Distros, or other BSD's, for that matter, to reliably
> install on my laptop, but OpenBSD was smooth sailing. So, ironically, it
> was OpenBSD's simplicity (and I read: ease-of-use) that attracted me to
> the project in the first place. That pretty much means I disagree with
> your assessment that the installer is not easy to use already. Why fix
> what is not broken?
> --
> Aaron Hsu <aaron.hsu@sacrificumdeo.net>
> "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he
> could do only a little." - Edmund Burke

First if you mean incensere for trolling that's not me. I am willing to
have a
well thought out discussion however. I have tried OBSD for a while through
out the years. The last time, the only thing that was not a no brainer was
the
partitioning and formating of the hard drive. Once I got past that step it
was
pretty easy. I come from the "old days". I prefer a well designed
character
based interface for LOTS of things over a gui. I used the "Internet" when a
1200 baud modem was the hot thing. Now with broadband in many places,
most websites are way overloaded with pictures/movies that slow the
Internet experience way down even with the fastest computers and the fastest
connections. Sorry to go so far afield. Anyway the goal of my comments
was to slightly change the install experience so that a relative beginner
could
install it with little or no hassle. I suspect that most of the people who
use
and install OBSD are not beginners but have some significant time on
computers before they even download the iso net install cd. The first thing
an installer should do is identify all the hardware in the target machine
and
display it. Then the user should be able to change it if the identifier is
wrong
which has happened to me more than I would like. Then the installer can
carry on with the rest of the work. In most OSes this is not the sequence.
The installation wants to do a lot of other stuff first. Well, another
discussion.
Identify why a beginner has problems installing with a usability lab and
then
redesign the interface to solve. Then when a person wants to go through the
install process ask up front, "are you a beginner or an expert?" That way
you could satisfy both worlds.

later,
charles......

On Thu, 03 May 2007 00:32:52 -0500, ***** charles
<shultzjrX@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> The first thing
> an installer should do is identify all the hardware in the target machine
> and
> display it. Then the user should be able to change it if the identifier
> is
> wrong
> which has happened to me more than I would like. Then the installer can
> carry on with the rest of the work. In most OSes this is not the
> sequence.
> The installation wants to do a lot of other stuff first. Well, another
> discussion.
> Identify why a beginner has problems installing with a usability lab and
> then
> redesign the interface to solve. Then when a person wants to go through
> the
> install process ask up front, "are you a beginner or an expert?" That
> way
> you could satisfy both worlds.

The hardware identification is listed when the system boots up in the form
of a blue kernel message. However, I think if you went and did an
usability test, I don't think most users would have a problem with the
hardware listing. Most beginners whom I have seen trying to install
OpenBSD are lost in the partitioning. The reason they are lost is because
they don't read the instructions. At this point, there is not much you can
do to help them out. Additionally, the system itself operates on a
philosophy of reading documentation if one does not understand something,
and the Installer is very easy to use if one reads the installation
documentation. The OpenBSD CD's include a complete walkthrough of the
process, last time I checked. Now, all this put together makes for an
interface that I don't think we could really change on the front of it
without ending up with an installer which was not representative of what
is expected of the user once installation is complete.

However, there have been some recent changes in 4.1 if I am reading the
changelog correctly, that help to make hardware identification and
selection easier and more accurate.

--
Aaron Hsu <aaron.hsu@sacrificumdeo.net>
"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he
could do only a little." - Edmund Burke

On Wed, 02 May 2007 00:22:36 +0000, Joachim Schipper wrote:

> I like how the installer is fully functional from a standard
> floppy.

OpenBSD is the only OS I have come across that is capable of doing a full
install entirely by wireless when booting from a single floppy (or a tiny
CD image).

And being able to use ^Z to suspend the installer, then use "ifconfig" to
set up and verify the wireless connection, then "fg" to resume the
installation is almost unbelievably convenient.

Mark
--
Signature still downloading via bittorrent....

mark south <marksouth@null.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> And being able to use ^Z to suspend the installer, then use "ifconfig" to
> set up and verify the wireless connection, then "fg" to resume the
> installation is almost unbelievably convenient.
>
You can also temporarily exit the installer by typing !, use ifconfig,
exit the shell and come back to installer.
Giovanni

On Fri, 04 May 2007 13:04:37 +0000, Giovanni Bechis wrote:

> mark south <marksouth@null.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> And being able to use ^Z to suspend the installer, then use "ifconfig" to
>> set up and verify the wireless connection, then "fg" to resume the
>> installation is almost unbelievably convenient.
>>
> You can also temporarily exit the installer by typing !, use ifconfig,
> exit the shell and come back to installer.

Yeah, they both work. So that's a double helping of cool points for the
installer.