On Oct 11, 1:11*pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
Daniel,

So sorry, why don't you post all your NDA, online.
Oh wait, if you bothered to read some of the NDAs, even mentioning
that you have an NDA is a violation of the NDA.
(Yes, I signed one with a company where I went to do a demo. The NDA
stipulated that I couldn't even talk about the customer, or that I met
with the customer, and I couldn't discuss what we talked about.)

If you think its BS, the customer is in MI, the NDA was signed in the
early 90's, regarding IDS and NeXTStep. The client liked me, but
wanted to use Sybase. So I backed out of any further discussions.

I've also given verbal NDAs. Yeah. people trust me enough to not talk
about certain things, which can make life sometimes difficult. You can
hint or suggest why someone should do something, but you can't tell
them why and if they ask, you can't tell them what you know or that
you can't talk about it.

So Daniel, go ahead and print your NDAs.

On Oct 11, 6:58*pm, InDeep <ind...@indeep.com> wrote:

> Yes, thanks teach. *You're wrong on this one, but it's ok to be wrong once
> in a while.
>
> *<8o)
To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
DB2 in a VM environment.
That's why its one of the "greenest" databases on the market.

Too bad no one from IBM's "marketing" department has caught on.

And funny that you mention it, but when you talk about VCPUs (virtual
CPUs), what release of IDS had them?
One would say IDS was "virtualized" many moons before it was
fashionable. ;-)

Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
> DB2 in a VM environment.

Let's not make sweeping statements without facts. I have been happy with IDS
so far on VMware Fusion on my Macbook Pro, but I have not had a history of
experience with it under any appreciable load. I have been impressed so far
using Perl with it, it is *very* responsive, but this is purely my opinion,
my subjective, biased opinion, it in no way proves that IDS is scalable on a
VM. Having said that, I have been advised AGAINST running Oracle 10g in a
VM of _any_ kind, this came from Oracle, nowhere else. I doubt that Oracle
database would perform well as I've indicated in my previous post. We _were_
able to get Oracle Apps to function on ESX, but it was a risky proposition,
one I would not recommend for the faint of heart, and certainly not something
you do without ESX expertise. Don't think you're just going to slap apps on
ESX and expect it to scale, it requires some baby sitting and tweaking, and
it's a high risk venture, YMMV.

> That's why its one of the "greenest" databases on the market.
>
> Too bad no one from IBM's "marketing" department has caught on.
>

Now _that_ appears to be true.


> And funny that you mention it, but when you talk about VCPUs (virtual
> CPUs), what release of IDS had them?
> One would say IDS was "virtualized" many moons before it was
> fashionable. ;-)

Virtual processors in IDS are distinctly different than an operating
system VM, I'm not sure where you make the connection. We need to be
careful mixing things up about VMs. It is the same problem when talking
about clustering, whether it's compute-clustering, shared-nothing, etc etc.
Let's be factual and focused so that we can maintain some credibility.

-ID-

--

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Terry Pratchett

InDeep wrote:

> I don't need to login to Metalink when I can talk to our Oracle rep and
> the Applications team, and hear what they have said.

The number of times they've been wrong ....

> This was not a
> trivial decision, as I indicated earlier in this thread. It actually
> was a war, the app team did not want VMs of any kind, instead preferring
> to stand up more and more hardware.

I agree with your apps team. I would never use a VM, except zVM unless
it was forced on me for financial reasons and there was no recourse.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> On Oct 11, 1:11 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> So sorry, why don't you post all your NDA, online.

Because I'm not the scoundrel hiding behind a claim that an
NDA prevents me from providing information: That is your game.
And I am challenging your veracity.

If you don't want someone to challenge your claim ... not make it.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> On Oct 11, 6:58 pm, InDeep <ind...@indeep.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, thanks teach. You're wrong on this one, but it's ok to be wrong once
>> in a while.
>>
>> *<8o)
> To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
> DB2 in a VM environment.
> That's why its one of the "greenest" databases on the market.

Post the source.

> Too bad no one from IBM's "marketing" department has caught on.

Too bad you can't post the numbers or reference any source that has
ever established this non-fact.

Smoke and mirrors indeed.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

On Oct 12, 2:20*pm, InDeep <ind...@indeep.com> wrote:
> Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> > To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
> > DB2 in a VM environment.
>
> Let's not make sweeping statements without facts. *I have been happy with IDS
> so far on VMware Fusion on my Macbook Pro, but I have not had a history of
> experience with it under any appreciable load. *I have been impressed so far
> using Perl with it, it is *very* responsive, but this is purely my opinion,
> my subjective, biased opinion, it in no way proves that IDS is scalable on a
> VM. *Having said that, I have been advised AGAINST running Oracle 10g in a
> VM of _any_ kind, this came from Oracle, nowhere else. *I doubt that Oracle
> database would perform well as I've indicated in my previous post. *We _were_
> able to get Oracle Apps to function on ESX, but it was a risky proposition,
> one I would not recommend for the faint of heart, and certainly not something
> you do without ESX expertise. *Don't think you're just going to slap apps on
> ESX and expect it to scale, it requires some baby sitting and tweaking, and
> it's a high risk venture, YMMV.
>
> > That's why its one of the "greenest" databases on the market.
>
> > Too bad no one from IBM's "marketing" department has caught on.
>
> Now _that_ appears to be true.
>
> > And funny that you mention it, but when you talk about VCPUs (virtual
> > CPUs), what release of IDS had them?
> > One would say IDS was "virtualized" many moons before it was
> > fashionable. ;-)
>
> Virtual processors in IDS are distinctly different than an operating
> system VM, I'm not sure where you make the connection. *We need to be
> careful mixing things up about VMs. *It is the same problem when talking
> about clustering, whether it's compute-clustering, shared-nothing, etc etc.
> Let's be factual and focused so that we can maintain some credibility.
>
> -ID-
>
Sigh.
Do I need to draw you a map?

On one half of a white board, draw what you think represents a VM. On
the other draw what you think is how IDS works.

On Oct 12, 2:27*pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> > On Oct 11, 1:11 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> > Daniel,
>
> > So sorry, why don't you post all your NDA, online.
>
> Because I'm not the scoundrel hiding behind a claim that an
> NDA prevents me from providing information: That is your game.
> And I am challenging your veracity.
>
> If you don't want someone to challenge your claim ... not make it.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Ah Daniel, since you want to play that game, I'm not a scoundrel. I'm
just a guy who's gonna tell you the truth to your face, whether you
like it or not.

Now why don't you figure out why Oracle's data cartridges don't work
as well as native data types?
Then get back to us.

I have a whole different thread on that discussion which is open to
all databases that have UDTs like cartridges , blades, extenders ...

InDeep wrote:
> Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
>> To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
>> DB2 in a VM environment.
>
> Let's not make sweeping statements without facts.

I am glad you said this, as my first reaction was that this was typical
Gumby BS. But, on the basis that maybe it's not, I would be interested
in a technical discussion on this on. If the belief is that IDS does
work well on virtualized platforms, and maybe better than other database
servers, then my question would be "Why ?". AFAIK all the DB's have
reasonably similar I/O profiles (this is changing a little/lot with our
latest announcement, but is generally true), and in most VM
environments, virtualized I/O becomes the issue quickly. Which is why
apps etc deploy well in VM environments, and databases, not so much. So
what is Informix doing any different that mitigates this ?

Mark Townsend wrote:
> InDeep wrote:
>
>> Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
>>
>>> To your point. Yes IDS will perform much better that either Oracle or
>>> DB2 in a VM environment.
>>>
>> Let's not make sweeping statements without facts.
>>
>
> I am glad you said this, as my first reaction was that this was typical
> Gumby BS. But, on the basis that maybe it's not, I would be interested
> in a technical discussion on this on. If the belief is that IDS does
> work well on virtualized platforms, and maybe better than other database
> servers, then my question would be "Why ?". AFAIK all the DB's have
> reasonably similar I/O profiles (this is changing a little/lot with our
> latest announcement, but is generally true), and in most VM
> environments, virtualized I/O becomes the issue quickly. Which is why
> apps etc deploy well in VM environments, and databases, not so much. So
> what is Informix doing any different that mitigates this ?
>

Checkpoints. )

--
Cheers,
Obnoxio the Clown

http://obotheclown.blogspot.com