Tom Newton wrote:
> On 2008-02-07, Peter Ludikovsky <darthludi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tom Newton wrote:
>>> On 2008-02-07, Udo Huebner <udo.huebner@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>> Hi all -
>>>>
>>>> in my WinXP-Home system there are 3 hard discs.
>>>> Grub starts WinXP, Linux and Win98SE where Win98SE sits in the primary
>>>> partition of the third disc.
>>>> The third disc contains 2 partitions: 1 primary, 1 logical, labeled in
>>>> Grub as hd2,0 and hd2,4.
>>>>
>>>> This third small disc was now changed by a 400GB disc again partitioned
>>>> in 2 partitions, 1 primary and 1 logical, but the primary partition is
>>>> now labeled hdc3 (not hdc1 ?) or in Grub as hd2,2 (not hd2,0 ?) which I
>>>> recognized when Win98SE did not start. Thus, I had to change this
>>>> additinally in Grub.
>>>>
>>>> How can this labeling occur?
>>>> Partioning had been done by Acronis Partition Expert under WinXP.
>>>>
>>>> Regards Udo
>>> I find it kind of odd that you consider Windows important enough to post
>>> the version, but not Linux.
>>>
>>> Windows1, Linux and Windows2 would have been fair.
>>>
>>> I, for one, am not going to help you run Windows, regardless. I recommend
>>> mke2fs /dev/hda
>>> mke2fs /dev/hdc
>>>
>>> You get the drift....
>>>
>>> Then mount one as /var and ond one as /usr.
>>>
>>> Now make up your mind: Are you a Linux Runner or a Windows Weenie?
>>>
>>> And keep in mind that KDE is only the first step towards learning to run
>>> Linux. You'll have to give up the training wheels some day...
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>> Way to go Mr. Subtle! Most people I know switched to Linux because they
>> percieved the community to be friendly and helpful, instead of
>> hate-mongering.
>
> I don't hate Windows. It's just nasty piece of software. A virus no one
> should install on their computer.
>
> I don't hate the black plague. I call it a nasty disease because it is.
>
> One trie to dissuade people from doing things that are harmful, and that's
> okay if you have a good replacement, which we do. It's called 'Linux".
>
> I'd warn you about a poisonous snake in your path, too. Doesn't
> mean I hate poisonous snakes. I don't. They are fascinating creatures.
> I just don't want one under my fingertips and I'd suggest that you
> don't try it either.
>
>> Personally, I'd rather try to help people, thus easing the transition,
>> instead of trying to enforce a binary decision on them...
>
> That occurred to me. But I figured he'd get plenty of that. And I was right.
>
> Personally, I think I did the right thing.
>
> Especially considering that KDE (etc.) are clones of the Windows user interface
> and thus very easy for Windows people to pick up.
>
> They aren't really doing anything but moving their training
> wheels over to a new bicycle.
>
> Regardless, the OP will do what is best for him.
>
> I just happen to think he should hear all opinions on the subject.
>
> Not just the ones you want to be aired.
>
> Tom

Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
for non-computing purposes, i.e. such matters as communication
or similarly to a typewriter for producing documents or graphics as one
might equally well do with a pencil or brushes, inks and or paints.
` I like to manipulate my digital photos with the gimp. I don't
much care about the commands available thru bash. I learned cli and
scripting on the Amiga before Linus Trowald knew he should write his own
kernel. I am not doing that again. And whether you like it or not I
will use whatever OS I need to use to run whatever softwares I need to
run to get done whatever I need to do with a computer. I think Windows
is a pain due to Microsoft's folly but I don't call Bill (the) Gates (of
Hell) since I put aside my Commodore C=64/128 where I learned about
BASIC and CPM.

Write about Linux setup please and make a 70 year old woman happy
instead of cluttering my Thunderbird and others newsreaders with
advocacy crap.

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - (Back to Angband) Team *AMIGA & SF-LUG*

Your tag lines (k) were stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

On 2008-02-07, bobbie sellers <bliss@california.com> wrote:
> Tom Newton wrote:
>> On 2008-02-07, Peter Ludikovsky <darthludi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tom Newton wrote:
>>>> On 2008-02-07, Udo Huebner <udo.huebner@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all -
>>>>>
>>>>> in my WinXP-Home system there are 3 hard discs.
>>>>> Grub starts WinXP, Linux and Win98SE where Win98SE sits in the primary
>>>>> partition of the third disc.
>>>>> The third disc contains 2 partitions: 1 primary, 1 logical, labeled in
>>>>> Grub as hd2,0 and hd2,4.
>>>>>
>>>>> This third small disc was now changed by a 400GB disc again partitioned
>>>>> in 2 partitions, 1 primary and 1 logical, but the primary partition is
>>>>> now labeled hdc3 (not hdc1 ?) or in Grub as hd2,2 (not hd2,0 ?) which I
>>>>> recognized when Win98SE did not start. Thus, I had to change this
>>>>> additinally in Grub.
>>>>>
>>>>> How can this labeling occur?
>>>>> Partioning had been done by Acronis Partition Expert under WinXP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards Udo
>>>> I find it kind of odd that you consider Windows important enough to post
>>>> the version, but not Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Windows1, Linux and Windows2 would have been fair.
>>>>
>>>> I, for one, am not going to help you run Windows, regardless. I recommend
>>>> mke2fs /dev/hda
>>>> mke2fs /dev/hdc
>>>>
>>>> You get the drift....
>>>>
>>>> Then mount one as /var and ond one as /usr.
>>>>
>>>> Now make up your mind: Are you a Linux Runner or a Windows Weenie?
>>>>
>>>> And keep in mind that KDE is only the first step towards learning to run
>>>> Linux. You'll have to give up the training wheels some day...
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>> Way to go Mr. Subtle! Most people I know switched to Linux because they
>>> percieved the community to be friendly and helpful, instead of
>>> hate-mongering.
>>
>> I don't hate Windows. It's just nasty piece of software. A virus no one
>> should install on their computer.
>>
>> I don't hate the black plague. I call it a nasty disease because it is.
>>
>> One trie to dissuade people from doing things that are harmful, and that's
>> okay if you have a good replacement, which we do. It's called 'Linux".
>>
>> I'd warn you about a poisonous snake in your path, too. Doesn't
>> mean I hate poisonous snakes. I don't. They are fascinating creatures.
>> I just don't want one under my fingertips and I'd suggest that you
>> don't try it either.
>>
>>> Personally, I'd rather try to help people, thus easing the transition,
>>> instead of trying to enforce a binary decision on them...
>>
>> That occurred to me. But I figured he'd get plenty of that. And I was right.
>>
>> Personally, I think I did the right thing.
>>
>> Especially considering that KDE (etc.) are clones of the Windows user interface
>> and thus very easy for Windows people to pick up.
>>
>> They aren't really doing anything but moving their training
>> wheels over to a new bicycle.
>>
>> Regardless, the OP will do what is best for him.
>>
>> I just happen to think he should hear all opinions on the subject.
>>
>> Not just the ones you want to be aired.
>>
>> Tom
>
> Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
> for non-computing purposes, i.e. such matters as communication
> or similarly to a typewriter for producing documents or graphics as one
> might equally well do with a pencil or brushes, inks and or paints.

Then use Windows or Mac.

> ` I like to manipulate my digital photos with the gimp. I don't
> much care about the commands available thru bash.

The "commands available through bash" are the names of executables, which
you certainly do care about, even if those names are hidden behind cutesy
icons you click on with your mouse.

> I learned cli and scripting on the Amiga before Linus Trowald
> knew he should write his own kernel. I am not doing that again.

So don't.

> will use whatever OS I need to use to run whatever softwares I need to
> run to get done whatever I need to do with a computer.

And myself and many others won't help you do it with Linux.

We don't want to see Linux turned into a clone of Windows.

> I think Windows
> is a pain due to Microsoft's folly but I don't call Bill (the) Gates (of
> Hell) since I put aside my Commodore C=64/128 where I learned about
> BASIC and CPM.
>
> Write about Linux setup please and make a 70 year old woman happy
> instead of cluttering my Thunderbird and others newsreaders with
> advocacy crap.

I am not "advocating". Most of the people advocating Linux are just like
you. They want Linux to become commercial so they can make money with their
computer skills.

I am doing just the opposite: I am anti-advocating Linux.

I am talking about preventing the corporate takeover of Linux by discouraging
people like you from running it. Because you won't run it unless you have
a lot of eye candy and don't have to learn anything about Linux and don't
have to type.

Make a 50 year old man happy and go back to the Windows world where you belong.

Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com

On 2008-02-08, Tom Newton <tom@server.invalid> wrote:
> On 2008-02-07, bobbie sellers <bliss@california.com> wrote:

> Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
> for non-computing purposes,

So you should be using Windows or Mac.

The reason Linux exists is because so many people have taken the time
to learn how the OS works and taught others in their turn.

It's a cooperative endeavor.

You, and others like you, are nothing but thieves.

You want all the advantages of Linux but don't want to do your fair
share of the work.

You aren't here to give and take, you are here to take.

So go back to the Windows/Mac world and pay for technical support.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com

bobbie sellers wrote:
> Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
> for non-computing purposes,

Tom Newton writes:
> So you should be using Windows or Mac.

He should be using whatever is most suitable for his purpose and is within
his budget, For many only Linux meets the latter requirement.

> You, and others like you, are nothing but thieves.

That is libel, and a lie. If you don't want anyone using your software
without paying you in some way do not release it under a Free license which
grants everyone permission to do exactly that.

> You want all the advantages of Linux but don't want to do your fair share
> of the work.

It costs Free Software authors exactly nothing when people use their
software. Therefor there is no reason to impute an obligation to pay for
it in any form.

> You aren't here to give and take, you are here to take.

It is _software_. No matter how many copies people make the author still
has everything he had before they made them. There is _no taking_.

> So go back to the Windows/Mac world and pay for technical support.

Many people and organizations stand ready to sell him technical support for
Linux.
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

On 2008-02-08, John Hasler <john@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
> bobbie sellers wrote:
>> Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
>> for non-computing purposes,
>
> Tom Newton writes:
>> So you should be using Windows or Mac.
>
> He should be using whatever is most suitable for his purpose and is within
> his budget, For many only Linux meets the latter requirement.

I disagree. And to back up that disagreement, I won't help her.

You may do as you wish.

>> You, and others like you, are nothing but thieves.
>
> That is libel, and a lie. If you don't want anyone using your software
> without paying you in some way do not release it under a Free license which
> grants everyone permission to do exactly that.

That's not the issue. All that free software exists because people took
the time to learn linux from others who took the time to learn linux
and then created that software instead of tutoring newbies on groups
like this.

It's one of the ways to do your fair share.

Sure, anyone can use the software, but we don't have to help people who
aren't contributing their fair share.

Who are only taking.

>
>> You want all the advantages of Linux but don't want to do your fair share
>> of the work.
>
> It costs Free Software authors exactly nothing when people use their
> software. Therefor there is no reason to impute an obligation to pay for
> it in any form.

You seem to be fixated on dollars and cents. I am not talking about
a spread sheet, I am talking about the cooperative endeavor that has
resulted in the Linux/GNU/non-GNU operating system.

>
>> You aren't here to give and take, you are here to take.
>
> It is _software_. No matter how many copies people make the author still
> has everything he had before they made them. There is _no taking_.

Yes there is. That author would not have had the knowledge and skills
to write that software if a lot of people hadn't assisted him/her
along the way.

People who were giving as well as taking.

>
>> So go back to the Windows/Mac world and pay for technical support.
>
> Many people and organizations stand ready to sell him technical support for
> Linux.

Yeh. And they are greedhead traitors who will destroy Linux if we let them.

They promote technnocracy, dependency, and ignorance, not the
independence and decentralized knowledge/skillbase that gave rise
to Linux.

Remember their first attempt to take over Linux?:

http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=116445

The frontal assault didn't work, and now they are focussing on sneaking
in the back door by making Linux "user friendly".

Those are the people behind KDE/Gnome/freedesktop.org, who are
being financed by the corporations who hate open source free
software and and OSes they can't control.

So they finance the creation of Windows-clone artificial interfaces
like KDE/Gnome in order to create a new generation of psuedo-Linux
runners who don't know Linux, but only know KDE or Gnome.

Who are dependent on the tecnocrats and their corporate sponsors and
won't be able to do anything when their software is suddenly non-free
and non-open source, and Linux is just another Mac/Windows OS.

The local LUG (Linux Users Group) is entirely controlled by yuppy puppies
who want to make money with their Linux skills and do everything they can
to make newbies utterly dependent on them, pushing just one distro and
KDE and teaching the newbies that the command line is scary and dangerous
and not for mere mortals like them.

They make me want to puke.

_Those_ are the kind of people you are defending.

Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com

Tom Newton wrote:
> On 2008-02-08, John Hasler <john@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>> bobbie sellers wrote:
>>> Some people are not interested in anything but the use of the computer
>>> for non-computing purposes,
>> Tom Newton writes:
>>> So you should be using Windows or Mac.
>> He should be using whatever is most suitable for his purpose and is within
>> his budget, For many only Linux meets the latter requirement.
>
> I disagree. And to back up that disagreement, I won't help her.
>
> You may do as you wish.
>
>>> You, and others like you, are nothing but thieves.
>> That is libel, and a lie. If you don't want anyone using your software
>> without paying you in some way do not release it under a Free license which
>> grants everyone permission to do exactly that.
>
> That's not the issue. All that free software exists because people took
> the time to learn linux from others who took the time to learn linux
> and then created that software instead of tutoring newbies on groups
> like this.
>
> It's one of the ways to do your fair share.
>
> Sure, anyone can use the software, but we don't have to help people who
> aren't contributing their fair share.
>
> Who are only taking.
>
>>> You want all the advantages of Linux but don't want to do your fair share
>>> of the work.
>> It costs Free Software authors exactly nothing when people use their
>> software. Therefor there is no reason to impute an obligation to pay for
>> it in any form.
>
> You seem to be fixated on dollars and cents. I am not talking about
> a spread sheet, I am talking about the cooperative endeavor that has
> resulted in the Linux/GNU/non-GNU operating system.
>
>>> You aren't here to give and take, you are here to take.
>> It is _software_. No matter how many copies people make the author still
>> has everything he had before they made them. There is _no taking_.
>
> Yes there is. That author would not have had the knowledge and skills
> to write that software if a lot of people hadn't assisted him/her
> along the way.
>
> People who were giving as well as taking.
>
>>> So go back to the Windows/Mac world and pay for technical support.
>> Many people and organizations stand ready to sell him technical support for
>> Linux.
>
> Yeh. And they are greedhead traitors who will destroy Linux if we let them.
>
> They promote technnocracy, dependency, and ignorance, not the
> independence and decentralized knowledge/skillbase that gave rise
> to Linux.
>
> Remember their first attempt to take over Linux?:
>
> http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=116445
>
> The frontal assault didn't work, and now they are focussing on sneaking
> in the back door by making Linux "user friendly".
>
> Those are the people behind KDE/Gnome/freedesktop.org, who are
> being financed by the corporations who hate open source free
> software and and OSes they can't control.
>
> So they finance the creation of Windows-clone artificial interfaces
> like KDE/Gnome in order to create a new generation of psuedo-Linux
> runners who don't know Linux, but only know KDE or Gnome.
>
> Who are dependent on the tecnocrats and their corporate sponsors and
> won't be able to do anything when their software is suddenly non-free
> and non-open source, and Linux is just another Mac/Windows OS.
>
> The local LUG (Linux Users Group) is entirely controlled by yuppy puppies
> who want to make money with their Linux skills and do everything they can
> to make newbies utterly dependent on them, pushing just one distro and
> KDE and teaching the newbies that the command line is scary and dangerous
> and not for mere mortals like them.
>
> They make me want to puke.
>
> _Those_ are the kind of people you are defending.
>
> Tom
>

"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open
source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested. 99% of that I run tends to
be open source, but that's _my_ choice, dammit."
-- Linus Torvalds, Linux Kernel Mailing List, 26. 10. 2004

First of all, the GPL, and generally _all_ open source licenses, allow
money to be made by providing services for those applications (support,
installation, ...)

What you are trying to enforce, if I understood your postings correctly,
is that no one may use Linux if they can't provide new code and aren't
comfortable with {ba,k,tc,c,}sh.

Here's a thought-experiment for you: Let's say car manufactors thought
exactly like you do. No one would be allowed to drive a car if they
didn't have good knowledge of the internals of the car and didn't
provide any new feature to that car. People like you, who absolutely
despise any kind of graphical user interface, would prefer to drive cars
that consist of nothing more that the frame, an engine and 4 wheels.

If you really are so worried that companies take over Linux, go ahead
and start your own distribution. No one can prevent that. I, for my
part, will continue to use Debian (no companies) & Ubuntu.