On 13 Nov 2003 23:34:23 GMT, Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>> Ok, thanks. 'oe' is similar to 'er' (from 'version') in English, isn't
>> it?
>
> no way near... :-/ like i said, it's like oo in 'book' and 'pool', it has a
> bit of both. it's very close to the german 'u'.

I need to fix the bug in my brain that made me mis-remember that.

>> There were a few Dutch people staying at the same hotel as myself & a
>> friend when we went skiing and the one I heard talking pronounced ski
>> as 'shki', so I assumed that the 's' in Dutch sounds like 'sh' in some
>> words.
>
> well, like i said, s does go to sh in some dialects, but not in standard
> dutch.

Ah, ok. It'll be interesting (to me, at least) to see what sort of
dialect (perhaps 'direlect'?) I end up with.

>>> that depends on the speaker. some speakers have a trilled r (tip of the
>>> tongue), other speakers have a so-called uvular trill in some positions
>>> (mainly CrV and rV) and something like a dutch j in other positions (mainly
>>> VrC and Vr)
>>
>> I can see I'm going to have to Google for linguistic terms.
>
> V = vowel, C = consonant. ;-)

I should've known, although I don't think I've ever seen them shortened
to V & C before. Thanks.

>> Ah. I was comparing the 's' at the end of Kremers with the 's' at the
>> end of, for example, 'Engels'. Is that the wrong way to think about it
>> (e.g is 'Engels' a special case, pronunciation-wise?)?
>
> no, the s in 'engels' in not special. it's the same as in
> 'kremers'... (well, i notice that there is some colouring of the s in
> 'engels' as a result of the l, which is "dark" after vowels, like in
> english. that influences the s, but it doesn't voice it...)

I think I understand; thanks.


--
Simon <simon@no-dns-yet.org.uk> **** GPG: F4A23C69
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
- Douglas Adams

Simon wrote:
> Ah, ok. It'll be interesting (to me, at least) to see what sort of
> dialect (perhaps 'direlect'?) I end up with.

LOL! 'direlect', have to remember that one... ;-)

--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
since when is vi an editor? a discussion on vi belongs in
comp.tools.unusable or something... ;-)

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> don't think I've quite picked up the rules for when an 's' sounds like
> 's' and when it sounds like 'sh' yet.
>
I think[0] you can safely say that most consonants in dutch are
pronounced 'hard' (ie. they end rather abruptly), most of the time.
So s like sh won't be heard in ABN (standard dutch), although some
southern dialects and people living close to the german border might
use it in some cases.

[0] I'm sure Joost will correct me if I'm wrong on this.[1]
[1] I didn't think analyzing something you speak everyday could be so
hard. It comes to naturally to properly acknowledge many details.

- --
Bartosz Oudekerk

Play Rogue, visit exotic locations, meet strange creatures
and kill them.
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On 14 Nov 2003 08:54:24 GMT, Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>> Ah, ok. It'll be interesting (to me, at least) to see what sort of
>> dialect (perhaps 'direlect'?) I end up with.
>
> LOL! 'direlect', have to remember that one... ;-)

I thought it was a more fitting word for some dialects.


--
Simon <simon@no-dns-yet.org.uk> **** GPG: F4A23C69
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
- Douglas Adams

Simon wrote:
>> LOL! 'direlect', have to remember that one... ;-)
>
> I thought it was a more fitting word for some dialects.

as a linguist, i kinda feel obliged to not agree with you. the official
doctrine says that all dialects are unique manifestations of man's ability
to speak language, and that therefore there cannot be such a thing as an
inferior dialect.

but my gut says something else... ;-)

--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
since when is vi an editor? a discussion on vi belongs in
comp.tools.unusable or something... ;-)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:43:02 +0000, Jess Anderson wrote:

> Since I have a dead-slow network connection (but it's free!),
> downloading is not a realistic option. Before I pop $40 for the
> Slackware 9.1 CDs, it would be reassuring to know that someone
> else with this laptop (933 MHz Pentium 3-M, 256MB of ram, some
> flavor of ATI video, an Intel eepro100 ethernet port and the
> built in eraser-button pointer) got it going without too much
> grief.

Without speaking a dialect of Dutch, (if i do no other Dutchmen will
understand me as i live below sealevel>, i suggest you go to;

http://www.freedos.org/jhall/tp-a30/
http://www9.linuxcare.com/labs/certs.../a30/index.epl

Experiance at first hand.


--
If the Linux community is a bunch of theives because they
try to imitate windows programs, then the Windows community
is built on organized crime.

Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

Bartosz Oudekerk wrote:
> I think[0] you can safely say that most consonants in dutch are
> pronounced 'hard' (ie. they end rather abruptly), most of the time.
> So s like sh won't be heard in ABN (standard dutch), although some
> southern dialects and people living close to the german border might
> use it in some cases.
>
> [0] I'm sure Joost will correct me if I'm wrong on this.[1]

i'm not going to correct you, because i think you're right. i've heard
similar things from phonologists. (i.e., people that study the sounds that
languages are made of. it's not my field of expertise.) although they
probably use different terms to describe it.

> [1] I didn't think analyzing something you speak everyday could be so
> hard. It comes to naturally to properly acknowledge many details.

yeah, funny, isn't it? i run into this problem so often...

--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
since when is vi an editor? a discussion on vi belongs in
comp.tools.unusable or something... ;-)

On 14 Nov 2003 10:17:30 GMT, Bartosz Oudekerk
<tyranas@lappie.unreachablehost.net> wrote:
> I think[0] you can safely say that most consonants in dutch are
> pronounced 'hard' (ie. they end rather abruptly), most of the time.

Ok, thanks for that. I'll try to make sure I pronounce it properly,
then.


--
Simon <simon@no-dns-yet.org.uk> **** GPG: F4A23C69
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
- Douglas Adams