on 2004-03-06, in <c2c4gl$asi$2@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>,
these words of wisdom from Cichlidiot did appear:
> So, to distract from the off-topic flamewars, I thought I'd pick the
> brains here on my current musings of the week relating to things of a
> graphical nature, heh. This is off-topic, but I would like people to think
> of this in the spirit of Slack.
>
....
>
> I've also been mucking about with "alternative" window managers like
> Fluxbox and Openbox and I'm wondering why there's such a promotion of
> Gnome and KDE in Slack ...

To answer your last question first, I agree with the others. They're
there, and people have heard of them.

As far as what window managers, I don't know if this is intended to be
a "what's your favorite window manager?" thread, but I'm going to treat
it like one. :-)

Right now I'm at a console, but when I do do startx, it's going to be
fvwm2. That's what I used in 1998. But I'm intrigued by the concept of
lesstif, which from a quick scan of the first paragraph or two, I get
the impression that it isn't as much a window manager as a tool set.
Like, I could hack fvwm to use lesstif widgets to make windows and
stuff, is that accurate? Or better yet, somebody's done it and I
won't have to. The thing that intrigues me about lesstif is that I've
seen documentary-type shows with people sitting at very large terminals,
using a mouse (or maybe a trackball), and the windows were really cool.
They were grey except for the beveled edges, which were like maroon. And
they were very crisp. Very Scientific. ¿;->

So, on to my whine: in a console, the user interface is pretrnaturally
inconsistent and non-intuitive. There aren't _any_ two things the same!
It's like the guys that wrote the scripts were in little isolation bubbles.

Like, Escape Colon 'w' is a pain in the ass. Alt-F-S is a natural. And
every Windows app that can "save as" works exactly the same way. (at
least for that one command.) I have to admit, that's one thing (I
reserve judgement as to whether it's _the_ thing) that they truly have
going for them. And I really have no objection to wizards, if they don't
treat their user like a dumbass or a child. Slack's own setup could be
construed to be a wizard, albeit keyboard-operated.

I guess the next thing to do is jump in and get X going (I can't remember
how much video RAM I have - is it possible to probe that? What's the
tool?) ISTR fvwm's interface wasn't all that bad, and infinitely
customizable. As far as menus, that depends on what level they're
implemented at, I suppose.

Anyway, that's my US$0.02. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

> Try RTFM. Try Google.
>
> cordially, as always,
>
> rm
Has it ocurred to anybody that rm might be +Cibao+'s evil twin?

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:22:55 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:

[ Snipped stuff troughout. ]

> Right now I'm at a console, but when I do do startx, it's going to be
> fvwm2.

Of cource, it's a Linux box, no? :-).

> That's what I used in 1998. But I'm intrigued by the concept of
> lesstif, which from a quick scan of the first paragraph or two, I get
> the impression that it isn't as much a window manager as a tool set.

Yes. It's a free clone of OSF/Motif (which used to be very populer on Unix
before QT and GTK+ existed). You might however want to have a look at:
http://www.wxwidgets.org/

> Like, I could hack fvwm to use lesstif widgets to make windows and
> stuff, is that accurate?

Yup. But just createing a nice .fvwm2rc does wonders, or install atheme:
http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~jtl/ALU/

> Or better yet, somebody's done it and I won't have to.

Try google for MWM.

> So, on to my whine: in a console, the user interface is pretrnaturally
> inconsistent and non-intuitive. There aren't _any_ two things the same!
> It's like the guys that wrote the scripts were in little isolation
> bubbles.

Well, most key-bindings and switches are either derived from the ed/ex/vi
or emacs editors. Thus knowing your basic way around those, should help...
That is even so, in a lot of X applications.

As for command-line flags, they generally support the standard Unix "-"
options (although just about any two Unixes differ on exact syntax there),
as well as GNU "--" (long) options.

> I guess the next thing to do is jump in and get X going (I can't
> remember how much video RAM I have - is it possible to probe that?

Yes, try: "X -configure"

> What's the tool?)

There are lots. I prever "xf86config" - however maybe try as well:
"xfree86setup" and/or "xf86cfg"

Maybe use "xvidtune" if it still needs some tweaking. And hand hack:
/etc/X11/XF86Config

> ISTR fvwm's interface wasn't all that bad, and
> infinitely customizable.

Then you might use "xwmconfig" and chouse that then.

> As far as menus, that depends on what level
> they're implemented at, I suppose.

Just edit $HOME/.fvwm2rc to your own tastes. And if you want to have that
as the global default backup /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.fvwm2 an copy it over.

The one shiped with Slackware is well commented, but some more examples:
http://www.dotfiles.com/index.php3?app_id=17

--
-Menno.

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Rich Grise thought it a good use of my time to say:
> For another, I've heard that he actually answers email. I haven't
> emailed him; I'm way too intimidated.

He does answer his email, and as far as giving the customer what they want,
I wmailed him about a slrn pkg before 8.1 came out. Dunno if I piqued his
interest or not. Wether I was one voice in the wilderness, or one voice in
the chorus, slrn made it into the distro.(BTW, the slrn.tgz I pointed him to
was made by +Chiron/Cibao+[so much for him not being helpful])

> I know I wouldn't. But I'm not Bob,

nor are you 'notbob'

> and I'd bet a paycheck that Mr. Volkerding would cop to not being Bob.

or even 'notbob'

> like he might even bother to check in on what's going on in the
> world of Slack.

Don't think he comes here(not presuming to speak for him). He dumped the
forum due to SNR problems.


- --
Drop the newbie "You guys owe me" attitude and you'll find that many of us
are quite willing to help, providing you don't act like an asshole and piss
everyone off. -- +Chiron+ In: alt.os.linux
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* Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com> writes:

> Steve Youngs wrote:
>> OK, I've just read the new license, it's basically a slightly modified
>> BSD license. I would be _very_ surprised if Slackware stopped shipping
>> XFree86. There just isn't any reason to. There isn't anything in the
>> new license to warrant it.

> but the point is that the one clause in which it differs from the
> (so-called modified) BSD license makes it incompatible with the
> GPL.

Yes. But the XFree86 folks have addressed this by _not_ applying the
new license to the XFree86 client-side libraries. So this means that
anything (window managers, Gnome/KDE, apps etc) that links to the X
libs will _not_ cause any incompatibility.

Could Pat sit down today and ship Slackware 9.2 and include XFree86
4.4.0 without any legal risk or problem (above and beyond his current
legal risks and problems)? I say yes.

> (and for the record, IMO the GPL is to blame for this incompatability,
> not the new XFree license.)

I agree.

--
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
| Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. |
| The proof of the pudding, is under the crust. |
|------------------------------<sryoungs@bigpond.net.au>---|

In alt.os.linux.slackware, Joost Kremers dared to utter,
> (and for the record, IMO the GPL is to blame for this incompatability, not
> the new XFree license.)

Agreed. We really need a new version of the GPL. Currenlty the Apache2
license isn't GPL compatable either (but I think they dual license
apache to remove this problem). The advertising clause is not a good
idea to me, but if it's their decision, I'll live by it.

--
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5

Alan Hicks wrote:
> Agreed. We really need a new version of the GPL.

or just a different license. i kinda like the BSD license. at least it's
truly free.

> Currenlty the Apache2
> license isn't GPL compatable either (but I think they dual license
> apache to remove this problem). The advertising clause is not a good
> idea to me, but if it's their decision, I'll live by it.

yeah, i'm not really thrilled by it either, but at least it doesn't place
any restrictions on the code of other people.

--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht
EN:SiS(9)

In alt.os.linux.slackware, Joost Kremers dared to utter,
> or just a different license. i kinda like the BSD license. at least it's
> truly free.

Most any little crap I do gets a BSD license. It's more hassle free and
I don't sharing with people who might not want to share back.

--
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5

Alan Hicks wrote:
> In alt.os.linux.slackware, Joost Kremers dared to utter,
>> or just a different license. i kinda like the BSD license. at least it's
>> truly free.
>
> Most any little crap I do gets a BSD license. It's more hassle free and
> I don't sharing with people who might not want to share back.

of course the people you share with might give your code to someone who
doesn't want to share back...

but IMO that's the price you pay for freedom.

--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht
EN:SiS(9)

> (and for the record, IMO the GPL is to blame for this incompatability, not
> the new XFree license.)
>
Possibly. But the gpl *has* to be incompatiable with any extra restrictions.
Otherwise you'd get a slippery slope where after five or six relicensings
you could make somehting fully propriety. The gpl has to make sure there is
no way you can make the software one bit less free, not at all. It also has
to make sure you cannot make it what some people consider more free,
because that would mean it could be relicensed being less free. Overall the
GPL does a remarkably good job that it doesn't get much credit for.