As both a sybase and an oracle dba i have found sybase support to be

MUCH better lately than oracle support. I always get prompt call backs

from sybase while im usually trying to google answers about support
issues with oracle - and metalink etc... just plain are awful. Every
time i have a problem and request help they post back some link to a
paper that sort of is related to the problem but completely misses the
point - and then they close the case...



Had a support call with oracle 2 months back where the guy basically
said it was time for him to go home and he wished me good luck getting
stuff going... I was boggled... Sure it wasnt production but there
wasnt even an attempt to transition the problem to someone else... I
think he was annoyed because the problem was mundane (but real).



But fundamentally i rarely need to go to sybase support. The
troubleshooting guide has a list of most errors and step by step problem
resolution steps. With oracle, there is NOTHING of the sort available.



Anyway... support is, in my mind, a big advantage of sybase. With
sybase i know that if i have a production emergency i will get help.
With oracle i kind of hope i can find a solution on google while i
wait for the callback... Fingers crossed that my oracle systems dont
ever crash...



Ed


--
Posted via http://dbforums.com

happyed wrote:

>As both a sybase and an oracle dba i have found sybase support to be
>
>MUCH better lately than oracle support. I always get prompt call backs
>
>from sybase while im usually trying to google answers about support
>issues with oracle - and metalink etc... just plain are awful. Every
>time i have a problem and request help they post back some link to a
>paper that sort of is related to the problem but completely misses the
>point - and then they close the case...
>
>Had a support call with oracle 2 months back where the guy basically
>said it was time for him to go home and he wished me good luck getting
>stuff going... I was boggled... Sure it wasnt production but there
>wasnt even an attempt to transition the problem to someone else... I
>think he was annoyed because the problem was mundane (but real).
>
>But fundamentally i rarely need to go to sybase support. The
>troubleshooting guide has a list of most errors and step by step problem
>resolution steps. With oracle, there is NOTHING of the sort available.
>
>Anyway... support is, in my mind, a big advantage of sybase. With
>sybase i know that if i have a production emergency i will get help.
>With oracle i kind of hope i can find a solution on google while i
>wait for the callback... Fingers crossed that my oracle systems dont
>ever crash...
>
>Ed
>
>--
>Posted via http://dbforums.com
>
>
I've never had the kind of experiences you desciribe with either Oracle
or Sybase support.

But I have checked out the links provided for on-line Sybase support and
they seem to be a more than a magnitude less useful than those provided
by Oracle. What I compared was:

http://www.sybase.com/support/manuals
to
http://tahiti.oracle.com

Maybe it is just me but I found nothing even remotely comparable.

For example I go to the Oracle site, click on the link for verison 9.2
and enter the search criterion "Database Tuning."
I click on "Performance Tuning Guide And Reference" and get examples of
exactly how to do it.

I do the same exact search at the Sybase site:

I get a message that the manual is unavailable.

I then click on a specific version and it takes me to a selection of
on-line books ... and I find three books titled "Performance and Tuning
Guide." Four minutes later, with a 256K DSL line I have a PDF to look
at. It contains information on data normalization. Something only
peripherally related to by original search criterion.

My point here is not to start a pointless flame war but rather to point
out that everyone has good experiences and bad experiences. An none of
the major RDBMS vendors has a lock on good, or bad, support.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:1062652153.221927@yasure...
[...]
>
> But I have checked out the links provided for on-line Sybase support
and
> they seem to be a more than a magnitude less useful than those
provided
> by Oracle. What I compared was:
>
> http://www.sybase.com/support/manuals
> to
> http://tahiti.oracle.com
>
> Maybe it is just me but I found nothing even remotely comparable.
>
> For example I go to the Oracle site, click on the link for verison
9.2
> and enter the search criterion "Database Tuning."
> I click on "Performance Tuning Guide And Reference" and get examples
of
> exactly how to do it.
>
> I do the same exact search at the Sybase site:
>
> I get a message that the manual is unavailable.
>
> I then click on a specific version and it takes me to a selection of
> on-line books ... and I find three books titled "Performance and
Tuning
> Guide." Four minutes later, with a 256K DSL line I have a PDF to
look
> at. It contains information on data normalization. Something only
> peripherally related to by original search criterion.
>
> My point here is not to start a pointless flame war but rather to
point
> out that everyone has good experiences and bad experiences. An none
of
> the major RDBMS vendors has a lock on good, or bad, support.
>
> --
> Daniel Morgan

What you've compared here seems to be the useability of the search
feature rather than the quality of the support documents. My
impression is that you've spent more time with Oracle so you know your
way around there better?

Anyway, for ASE, the manuals are here:
http://sybooks.sybase.com/as.html .
To access support information, including things like searching through
solved cases, go here: http://www.sybase.com/support (for some
information, you need to register forst, though that's free).

HTH,

Rob V.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Verschoor

Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.5/12.0/11.5/11.0
and Replication Server 12.5

Author of "Tips, Tricks & Recipes for Sybase ASE" and
"The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/shop

mailto:rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECOY
http://www.sypron.nl
Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
-------------------------------------------------------------

Rob Verschoor wrote:

>"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message
>news:1062652153.221927@yasure...
>[...]
>
>
>>But I have checked out the links provided for on-line Sybase support
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>they seem to be a more than a magnitude less useful than those
>>
>>
>provided
>
>
>>by Oracle. What I compared was:
>>
>>http://www.sybase.com/support/manuals
>>to
>>http://tahiti.oracle.com
>>
>>Maybe it is just me but I found nothing even remotely comparable.
>>
>>For example I go to the Oracle site, click on the link for verison
>>
>>
>9.2
>
>
>>and enter the search criterion "Database Tuning."
>>I click on "Performance Tuning Guide And Reference" and get examples
>>
>>
>of
>
>
>>exactly how to do it.
>>
>>I do the same exact search at the Sybase site:
>>
>>I get a message that the manual is unavailable.
>>
>>I then click on a specific version and it takes me to a selection of
>>on-line books ... and I find three books titled "Performance and
>>
>>
>Tuning
>
>
>>Guide." Four minutes later, with a 256K DSL line I have a PDF to
>>
>>
>look
>
>
>>at. It contains information on data normalization. Something only
>>peripherally related to by original search criterion.
>>
>>My point here is not to start a pointless flame war but rather to
>>
>>
>point
>
>
>>out that everyone has good experiences and bad experiences. An none
>>
>>
>of
>
>
>>the major RDBMS vendors has a lock on good, or bad, support.
>>
>>--
>>Daniel Morgan
>>
>>
>
>What you've compared here seems to be the useability of the search
>feature rather than the quality of the support documents. My
>impression is that you've spent more time with Oracle so you know your
>way around there better?
>
>Anyway, for ASE, the manuals are here:
>http://sybooks.sybase.com/as.html .
>To access support information, including things like searching through
>solved cases, go here: http://www.sybase.com/support (for some
>information, you need to register forst, though that's free).
>
>HTH,
>
>Rob V.
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Rob Verschoor
>
>Certified Sybase Professional DBA for ASE 12.5/12.0/11.5/11.0
>and Replication Server 12.5
>
>Author of "Tips, Tricks & Recipes for Sybase ASE" and
>"The Complete Sybase ASE Quick Reference Guide"
>Online orders accepted at http://www.sypron.nl/shop
>
>mailto:rob@DO.NOT.SPAM.sypron.nl.REMOVE.THIS.DECO Y
>http://www.sypron.nl
>Sypron B.V., P.O.Box 10695, 2501HR Den Haag, The Netherlands
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
I've spent more time recently. That wasn't true in the past. But the
search feature is certainly an important part of support. And more so
for those with little knowledge than for experts. If someone is an
expert, by definition, they have mastered it. The search feature must
work for those that are beginning and intermediate level.

And as I said ... my intent was not some stupid flame-war. Rather just
to point out that statements such as company X's support is better than
company Y's are generally misleading or meaningless as is the case here.
The impression depends on the person, their level of familiarity, and
the phase of the moon.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Daniel Morgan <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in
news:1062684956.674700@yasure:

> I've spent more time recently. That wasn't true in the past. But
> the search feature is certainly an important part of support. And
> more so for those with little knowledge than for experts. If
> someone is an expert, by definition, they have mastered it. The
> search feature must work for those that are beginning and
> intermediate level.

The link that Rob provided gets you to the P&T docs in two clicks.
Once there, you can _choose_ to either view them online or download
the PDF.

> Rather just to point out that statements such as company X's support
> is better than company Y's are generally misleading or meaningless
> as is the case here.

I think you're not acknowledging that different enterprises give
support different degrees of importance. Some will spend more than
others and it'll show in the quality of support.

Additionally, if development and support aren't working hand in hand,
support is the clueless (not their fault) appendage.
--
Pablo Sanchez, Blueoak Database Engineering
http://www.blueoakdb.com

Pablo Sanchez wrote:

>Daniel Morgan <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in
>news:1062684956.674700@yasure:
>
>
>
>>I've spent more time recently. That wasn't true in the past. But
>>the search feature is certainly an important part of support. And
>>more so for those with little knowledge than for experts. If
>>someone is an expert, by definition, they have mastered it. The
>>search feature must work for those that are beginning and
>>intermediate level.
>>
>>
>
>The link that Rob provided gets you to the P&T docs in two clicks.
>Once there, you can _choose_ to either view them online or download
>the PDF.
>
>
>
>>Rather just to point out that statements such as company X's support
>>is better than company Y's are generally misleading or meaningless
>>as is the case here.
>>
>>
>
>I think you're not acknowledging that different enterprises give
>support different degrees of importance. Some will spend more than
>others and it'll show in the quality of support.
>
>Additionally, if development and support aren't working hand in hand,
>support is the clueless (not their fault) appendage.
>
>
Oh but I am. Different organizations put more or less effort into
different aspects of it. I would say that Oracle's on-line support is
the best. Other organizations, such as Sybase, do better with phone support.

But wait six months and the reverse may be true.

There was a time, not that long ago, I'd have preferred Informix over
both Sybase and Oracle. That too changed.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Brian Ceccarelli wrote:

><snipped>
>
>The reason why http://tahiti.oracle.com exists, why the "Oracle Press" red
>books exists, why "Ask Tom" exists, and the reason why all third-party
>resources exist in the first place, is because the Oracle manuals themselves
>are insufficient, piece-mealed, difficult to read, have poor grammar, lie,
>and do not "explain" anything. The manuals are like that becasue the
>product is like that.
>
>
>Brian
>http://www.dbpowersuite.com
>
>
>
Can't disagree. But using your logical a reasonable person could
conclude that the reason comp.databases usenet groups exist is because
all manuals, books, and web sites are insufficient. For every question
posted here ... do you make a value judgement that they are a slam
against Sybase?

I find your argument disingenuous. You like one more than the other
because you know one better than the other. If you had 10 years of
Oracle or DB2 under your belt you'd look at the Sybase material as
inferior. Basically your argument boils down to which is better ...
green or blue.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Check the Industry Analyst: Awards


http://www.sybase.com/detail_list/1,6902,10176,00.html

http://www.oracle.com/ip/deploy/data..._sqlbench.html




"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message news:1062691653.319373@yasure...
Pablo Sanchez wrote:

Daniel Morgan <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in
news:1062684956.674700@yasure:

I've spent more time recently. That wasn't true in the past. But
the search feature is certainly an important part of support. And
more so for those with little knowledge than for experts. If
someone is an expert, by definition, they have mastered it. The
search feature must work for those that are beginning and
intermediate level.

The link that Rob provided gets you to the P&T docs in two clicks.
Once there, you can _choose_ to either view them online or download
the PDF.

Rather just to point out that statements such as company X's support
is better than company Y's are generally misleading or meaningless
as is the case here.

I think you're not acknowledging that different enterprises give
support different degrees of importance. Some will spend more than
others and it'll show in the quality of support.

Additionally, if development and support aren't working hand in hand,
support is the clueless (not their fault) appendage.
Oh but I am. Different organizations put more or less effort into different aspects of it. I would say that Oracle's on-line support is the best. Other organizations, such as Sybase, do better with phone support.

But wait six months and the reverse may be true.

There was a time, not that long ago, I'd have preferred Informix over both Sybase and Oracle. That too changed.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

jcheong wrote:

> Check the Industry Analyst: Awards
>
>
> http://www.sybase.com/detail_list/1,6902,10176,00.html
>
> http://www.oracle.com/ip/deploy/data..._sqlbench.html
>
>

The only thing that matters is when the database is down, you don't know
why, and management is asking about seconds and minutes, not hours or
days. Something not a single organization giving out awards has ever
experienced. And it is a moments like that when religious conviction may
be worth more than the analyst at the other end of the phone. ;-)

Assuming you and your organization don't buy relational databases based
on model year like cars ... look at the awards over the last ten years.

They have all the value of a benchmark. None! And I say that even when I
agree with the results.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:1062810703.321656@yasure...
>>
> I find your argument disingenuous. You like one more than the other
> because you know one better than the other. If you had 10 years of
> Oracle or DB2 under your belt you'd look at the Sybase material as
> inferior. Basically your argument boils down to which is better ...
> green or blue.

No Daniel. I have a lot of experience with Oracle. I have actually
worked with Oracle longer than Sybase. 15 years with Oracle, 12 years with
Sybase. More than likely, I know both products better than you do. And I
actively work, even now, with both products . . . programming . . .
performance tuning . . . administration.. .

My experience does not render both equal. And that is from an initial
Oracle bias. Oracle has proved itself time and time again inferior to
Sybase. Both on the altruistic design point-of-view, and on day to day
usage.

I develop database-intensive applications cross platform. Both OS
cross-platform and database brand cross platform. I know the nuances of
Oracle, Sybase and MS SQL Server very well. PL/SQL, Transact-SQL . . . I
know both exteremely well. DBA logical and physical design on all these
platforms--second nature to me. Today, I had yet another problem with
Oracle. Today I hit Oracle's page chaining penalty. I had to program a
work-around. Was I doing something complicated? NO! All I wanted to
do was update a column's worth of null values with not-null values. I just
wanted to do it once! I cannot do even a simple single update in Oracle
without paying a big price. Cost? In order to avoid this particular
Oracle blunder, I have to create the work table with a char column instead
of a varchar2 column. Now over the lifetime of this kludge, this will
collectively create 1000+ terabytes of useless blank data. 1000+ terabytes
because Oracle doesn't work right. So, you tell me. Is it worth it to
use Oracle?

Personally, I am getting to be an old man. I am sick of wasting my life
messing with crappy software. I have better things to do that screw around
with Oracle. I have productive things to do. Oracle is
counter-productive. The only reason I have to waste my life with Oracle is
because of people like you, who are not smart enough to realize that they
have been fooled by the propaganda arm of Oracle, who do not now enough
about math or common-sense design patterns to discern the copius awful
problems that are deeply embedded in the Oracle product. People like you
do not know the difference between the null set and the set containing empty
strings, the very fundamentals of set theory. You have no idea what this
mistake affects in Oracle. Intersections, unions, primary keys. . . they
are all screwd up in Oracle because of this fundamental set theory mistake.
You, Daniel, do not know enough about fruit to identify a lemon.

I cannot think of a single instance, in my entire experience with databases,
where Oracle out-performed Sybase in anything. Not a thing. I can think
about 40+ ways how Oracle got in the way of a project. Go to my web-site
and read them. Check them out for youself. Even the Oracle Senior
Engineer verifies all Oracle's problems. And his excuse to use Oracle is
that "Oracle has market share." As if that is reason to buy a product.


> --
> Daniel Morgan
> http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
> http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
> damorgan@x.washington.edu
> (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
>